So, Rosely, tell us: How long did it take you to learn these languages, Portuguese and English?
Portuguese is my mother tongue. Spanish
I learnt in my childhood, living in Latin America countries. I have been living
in Australia for 5 years. Before that, I did some English courses in Brazil. I
am still learning the English Language and I think I will be learning my whole
life. Vocabulary is always being added.
To be sincere, you sound like a person
who would find learning languages something easy. Where were you born?
I am from Brazil. I don't know how long
it took me to learn Portuguese. It was the first language I had contact with.
Maybe 3 years. Around 5 years to learn the English
Language. In my opinion, you can only learn a language when you immerse in
a culture of people who speak it on a daily basis.
Rosely, when I mention learning, I mean
actually learning, so that it is not like you can say, Hi, how are you.
It is more like you can speak about anything without much difficulty and you
can also write about anything without much difficulty, so say when you reach
the level of the native person.
Adding the time I spent in Brazil
doing English courses, I should say around 7 years.
So, this was for the English language,
I assume. What about the Portuguese and the Spanish languages?
Yes, it's for the English Language.
Portuguese:
As I wrote before, I am from Brazil. It
took for me to learn the Portuguese language the same time that takes to a
child when she is learning to talk their own native language, around 3 years to
speak and 2 years to write. Total 5 years.
Spanish
In my childhood, I lived 1 year in
Bolivia, Peru, and Chile. I learnt the language very quick. In one year was
speaking very well. Then, came back to Brazil and forgot the Spanish Language,
but the phonemes were already in my brain. When I start working in Latin
America, in less than 6 months I was speaking very well, without
an accent. It took around 1 year to write as well.
Rosely, it actually took me an entire
life to learn the Portuguese language and I am still unable to use half of the
vocabulary that my father knew at the age of 40 yo. In Brazil, studying the
Portuguese language each and every year of your primary and secondary schools
is a legal obligation, as far as I know. And I still had some Portuguese
classes during my undergraduate, perhaps first year.
I agree with you, Marcia. I had the
Portuguese Language classes until the University.
And English, I am still learning.
Yes, Rosely, my point is the amount of
time we are spending to learn languages, but also the difficulties involved.
Rosely, I have been studying English,
because of the educational system in Brazil, since at least Year 10. The system
guarantees that we get at least three years of formal study of the English
language.
I also studied at FISK Schools because
the classes they had at my school, even though prepared and taught by native
American people at least sometimes, were absolutely horrible. Learning anything
at all during those classes should be considered nothing less than a miracle.
O estudo de Língua Estrangeira Moderna passa a fazer parte do núcleo
comum, com obrigatoriedade para o ensino de 2º grau, recomendando-se a sua
inclusão nos currículos de 1º grau onde as condições o indiquem e permitam
is what I found online regarding the
topic, so that mandatory, in Brazil, is that we study a foreign language during
our high school time, from Year 10 to 12, not before or after that. Three
years.
I studied for four years at FISK
Schools to get my certificate.
I then had one year of postgraduate
studies at UERJ. That is when I got my qualifications: Translator and
Interpreter.
We here have eight years, what is
nothing compared to the 13 years plus I spent studying the Portuguese language
in Brazil.
I still had six months practicing
conversation in another course, Oxford if I am not mistaken, one year doing a
sort of probation, like supervised translation, and six months doing a sort of
supervised interpreting, like to the least.
I probably did way more than that, but
it is hard remembering everything.
That amounts to ten years of formal
study of the English language.
I think language is something you
realistically spend your entire life studying and, even so, on the last day of your
human life, you are going to be committing mistakes when trying to use it as a
communication tool.
I would like to know from you if you
had the experience of comparing learning from a person who was born speaking
English with learning from a person who was born speaking another
language.
I also would like to know if you agree
with what I say about the laws and education in Brazil. You can see my sources
here, at the bottom of our conversation.
Yes, in Brazil, having a foreign
language in the school’s curriculum is mandatory. When I studied at the high
school in Brazil, I had 2 years of the French language and 5 years of the
English Language but didn’t learn much.
Studying 2 or 3 hours per week the new language, for 5 years, is almost nothing compared to the language spoken outside the school. Students continue talking with family and friends in their mother tongue. Outside classes, they are not exposed to the second language. In my opinion, it is not effective.
A second language acquisition happens when a student is immersed in it the whole day. Even when people are living in another Country, at home the mother tongue prevails. What I really learned in the English classes in Brazil was English grammar. When I did the TESOL course here, in Australia, I knew better grammar than Australian students because they don't learn grammar. On the other hand, I have very good Portuguese language background and some grammar subjects are the same in the English language.
Another point is the age that people
are exposed to the new language. For adults, it is much more difficult than for
children. As I wrote before, it was easier for me to learn Spanish
because I learned it when I was a child and my brain opened to acquire new
phonemes. When I lived in Argentina, the language consolidated in my brain.
Even though, I read several Spanish books to write well.
Another example: When my daughter and I
came to Australia, she was 16 yo and didn’t speak English. Today, she is 21 yo
and speaks better than me. She studies and works here.
I don’t think that learning a new
language is easy, not at all. Neither that doesn’t take many years to learn it.
Here, we use to read English books, watch television, hear the ABC radio
interviews, etc.
My last point is the use of each person
has for the new language acquisition. For example, an international lawyer has
to express his thoughts correctly, with good vocabulary, and must be an
excellent writer. A handyman doesn’t. A popular talk is enough.
Consequently, the time for each one to acquire the new language is completely
different.
Rosely, you seem to have a lot to say.
Your points are adding, I suppose: You mention immersion since the start, so
that I notice that that is a main point for you. You really believe that only
full immersion in the target culture can bring an adequate level of knowledge
of the language. I myself do not really believe that, since English, for
instance, is the language in several cultures, so say American, Irish, and
Australian.
If we go to one of those places, we
will actually get addicted to their accent, to their agglutination levels and
things like that. Ideally, we would learn the clearest English of all, which is
probably English English, and we then would be best prepared, I reckon.
You made a nice point there, about the
use: I have been thinking that there could be a set of words that needs to be
mastered by the person by default if we consider a specific trade or situation,
so say handyman, as you said. We could actually put a figure on the cardinality
of this set, and that would probably make teaching another language something
more rational.
I recently acquired three more certificates: Introduction to TESOL, TESOL, and TEFL. One of my courses demanded that I wrote more than ten essays from day to night, and I managed to get maximum marks precisely in that one, believe it or not. I also got four out of four in an assessment that is done in Australia to measure linguistic skills that they see as mandatory for the person to be able to teach in the Country. I got four out of four in all components. I guess I finally learned the basics, then, but, wow, it took me a life, and a life ALSO of immersion in the culture (more than ten years in Australia, some time in the US, etc.).
I recently acquired three more certificates: Introduction to TESOL, TESOL, and TEFL. One of my courses demanded that I wrote more than ten essays from day to night, and I managed to get maximum marks precisely in that one, believe it or not. I also got four out of four in an assessment that is done in Australia to measure linguistic skills that they see as mandatory for the person to be able to teach in the Country. I got four out of four in all components. I guess I finally learned the basics, then, but, wow, it took me a life, and a life ALSO of immersion in the culture (more than ten years in Australia, some time in the US, etc.).
Your writing is rich, so that there is
more to it: You talk about age, and I sincerely have to disagree with you.
Learning has to do with skills and physical capabilities, but also with spirit
and other factors, such as tranquility and necessity. The older you get, the
more skills you should have.
You also mention amount of time
immersed in the language as something that relates, in perhaps a proportional
manner, to the amount and quality of the learning. I think more of quality, I
must confess.
I wonder if you fear this question,
since it remained unaddressed in your last token: Have you had the opportunity
of comparing a TEFL teacher whose mother tongue is English with one whose
mother tongue is another?
I think I don't agree with you when you
say: We would learn the clearest English of all, which is probably
English English, and we then would be best prepared, I reckon.
Best prepared for what? These regional
differences are language as well. The same happens with Spanish. Of course, the
Spanish from Spain is pure and very pleasant to listen to. Notiwthstanding,
different dialects around Spain make the language dirty (not
pure). Or, in Latin America, Spanish Language is different in each country. But
all of them are Spanish with local adaptations.
Or the Portuguese spoken in Portugal,
Brazil, Angola, etc. The Brazilian Portuguese spoken in the North and South of
Brazil. Different words for the same meaning, like mandioca = macacheira. But,
again, depends on the use of language for each one. You are an academic person,
then justify why you want the pure English.
And what do you think about the new
language that has been created around the world – the texting? I really
believe that in 50 years the pure English or the pure Spanish, etc, will be
killed. Is it right? Is it wrong? In my opinion, it’s just a different way of
the new generation to communicate.
The question you have made:
Have you had the opportunity of
comparing a TEFL teacher whose mother tongue is English with one whose
mother tongue is another?
I had already English teacher from
England or Australia and English teacher from Brazil. The Brazilian teacher is
an excellent professional; I studied English for Business with him. Nowadays he
is not a teacher anymore, just a translator of the biggest companies in Brazil.
What I felt is that he could understand better the difficulties that the
Brazilian people had in relation to the English language; for instance,
the huge list of prepositions with verbs (phrasal verb) that changes the
meaning of the word. But for the English teacher, a phrasal verb is part
of his talks since his birth. I think he can’t feel the student’s difficulty.
Brazilian teacher teaching Brazilian
people knows the differences of grammar and sentence's construction of
each language. Consequently, he can explain better.
On the other hand, Australian teacher
teaching English to foreign people teach them the local accent, the culture. In
my opinion, both are good.
You are probably right on this one,
Rosely: That both are equally good. To be sincere, my best English teachers
were from the own Brazil, not from the USA, Australia, England or anywhere
else, so that my experience actually tells me that the best teacher is that who
has English as a second language, not first. Thanks for the chat and also for your
kindness. I think that the blog would not be as good without your contribution.
As for the texting, I don’t think our daily language will ever be affected in a
meaningful manner.
A good start studying a second language should be learning it in your own Country. But, to solidity the learning of the language and to be fluent when talking, I believe that it's better to spend some time in a Country that speaks the language learned.
Sure, sure. Perhaps that should be a mandatory component of the certificates: Some experience abroad, where they speak the target language.
A good start studying a second language should be learning it in your own Country. But, to solidity the learning of the language and to be fluent when talking, I believe that it's better to spend some time in a Country that speaks the language learned.
Sure, sure. Perhaps that should be a mandatory component of the certificates: Some experience abroad, where they speak the target language.
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